JOLLYBLOGGER: Putting "Heaven" in Perspective

June 04, 2007

Putting "Heaven" in Perspective

Alastair Adversaria has a post with a letter from N. T. Wright defending himself against what he believes are some libelous criticisms. In the letter, Wright has a wonderful little paragraph about heaven. And before I quote this, please keep in mind that this is a post about heaven, not a referendum on N. T. Wright. I understand that Wright is a lightning rod these days, and any mention of his name seems to cause people to go all Ado Annie on him - "with Wright it's all or nothing" - and I have tried to avoid that here on the blog, as best I can, by interacting with the views themselves and agreeing or disagreeing as I see fit.

This little statement on heaven is one where i see fit to agree wholeheartedly:

This brings me to 'heaven'. Yes, in the New Testament of course there is the hope for being 'with Christ, which is far better' (Philippians 1.26). But have you not noticed that the New Testament hardly ever talks about 'going to heaven', and certainly never as the ultimate destiny of God's people. The ultimate destiny, as Revelation 21 makes abundantly clear, is the 'new heavens and new earth', for which we will need resurrection bodies. Please, please, study what the Bible actually says. When Jesus talks in John 14 of going to prepare a place for us, the word he uses is the Greek word mone, which isn't a final dwelling place but a temporary place where you stay and are refreshed before continuing on your journey. The point about Jesus being our hope is that he will come again from heaven to change this world, and our bodies, so that the prayer he taught us to pray will come true at last: thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as in heaven. That is God's will; that is why Jesus came; that is our final hope. Of course, Christians who die before that time go to be with him in heaven until the time when the whole creation is redeemed (Romans 8.18-27 — have you studied that recently?). That isn't a 'symbolic meaning', and I confess I don't know why you should think it does.

The problem is, I think, that there are some Christians who have not been taught what the Bible actually teaches about the redemption of the whole creation. The Bible doesn't say that the creation — including earth — is wicked and that we have to be rescued from it. What is wicked, and what we need rescuing from, is sin, which brings death, which is the denial of the good creation. When we say the creation is wicked we are colluding with death. Sadly, some Christians seem to think they have to say that.

My favorite statement in that is:

When Jesus talks in John 14 of going to prepare a place for us, the word he uses is the Greek word mone, which isn't a final dwelling place but a temporary place where you stay and are refreshed before continuing on your journey.

That's one of the best pictures I have ever read of the intermediate state simply because it calls attention to the fact that the real blessed hope is a hope of physical and bodily pleasures to be enjoyed in the presence of a "physical" Jesus in a new heavens and a new earth.

And it's a good reminder, contra gnosticism (and contra the inroads of gnosticism in Christianity), that to be physical, material and bodily is to be good, and the physical, material and bodily things around us are good and are objects of redemption the same that our soul is.

Which will lead me to another post - I think it's time we jettisoned some old terminology - it's time to jettison the concept of "the salvation of the soul," not because it's wrong, but because it is inadequate and deficient. But that's for another post.

Jun 4, 2007 1:05:11 PM | Religion, Theology

12 Comments

Thanks David. How we ever lost sight of such a marvelous hope, I just can't imagine. It's heartening that so many today are rediscovering the implications of the resurrection. It is such good GOOD news for the world.

I wrote a piece a while back comparing the beauty of Mont St. Michel to the ugliness of the Chicago suburbs, and looking forward to the hope of New Creation. In it, I quoted this bit of a speech by Vinoth Ramachandra, which all but moves me to tears every time I read it:

The closer we get to God, the more human we become, not less. Our created physical bodies have a future. In raising Jesus from death, the creator was affirming our humanity, that this historical, embodied existence does have a future.

So you see, our salvation lies not in an escape from this world, but in the transformation of this world. Everything that is good, and true, and beautiful in human history is not lost forever, but will be restored and directed to the worship of the true God. And all our human activities in the arts, in the sciences, in the worlds of economics and politics, and even the non-human creation, will be brought to share in the liberating rule of God.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | June 04, 2007 at 02:03 PM

I recently listened to several mp3 downloads of talks Wright gave at Calvin College's January Series. I really enjoyed hearing his perspective. I thought it was a breath of fresh air.
It's odd that people seem to be interacting so much with their perception of what he's saying over the internet, rather than having more direction conversation with him. It seems a little hard on him.

Posted by: Julana | June 04, 2007 at 04:02 PM

I think Peter and James would take issue with your admonition not to speak of the salvation of souls.

"Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls." (I Peter 1:8-9, ESV)

"Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21, ESV)

There are plenty of others that don't use the word 'salvation' but deal with similar concepts. See here for a list that includes lots of them.

Posted by: Jeremy Pierce | June 04, 2007 at 04:40 PM

Jeremy - The point is that we don't talk about the redemption of our bodies. If we had a term that encompassed both, it would be better.

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | June 04, 2007 at 04:53 PM

I hate it when you nail me like that Jeremy! ;-)

But, Wonders hits where I was going with that - I think we forget that salvation includes the body.

Posted by: David Wayne | June 04, 2007 at 10:00 PM

WRIGHT 'What is wicked, and what we need rescuing from, is sin, which brings death....'

PAUL 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?' (Romans 7:24)

Paul had seen what happened to corpses and he wanted out of there.

Posted by: Steven Carr | June 05, 2007 at 01:15 AM

Paul had seen what happened to corpses and he wanted out of there.

Dude! Are you suggesting that Paul saw salvation as escape from the body?

Someone needs to read 1 Corinthians 15 again. Sheesh...

Posted by: Wonders for Oyarsa | June 05, 2007 at 09:51 AM

I read 1 Corinthians 15 again.

Here is a bit of it, which Wright never quotes in full in his 'Resurrection' book 'The first mad Adam became a created being, the last Adam a life-giving spirit'. Wright also never quotes 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?', in 'Resurrection', nor does he quote the author of 1 Peter writing 'All flesh is grass' (strange for somebody whose life was transformed by the news that flesh would be made immortal)

Paul was writing to early converts to Jesus-worship , who still scoffed at the idea of God choosing to raise a corpse. I guess the earliest converts to Christinaity did not have the evidence available to Wright.

Posted by: Steven Carr | June 06, 2007 at 01:36 AM

"How we ever lost sight of such a marvelous hope", Oyarsa?

When the only future Christians are preaching is Seven Years of Antichrist dystopia followed by The End, a Dark Future followed by No Future? When the only "hope" is "Twinkle twinkle coming Christ, Beam Me up to Paradise?"

A posting and comment I copped off a LiveJournal yesterday that says it all:

1) Original posting by "bardoftoday":

Current mood: Contemplative
Title: God abandoned America

You should listen to this.

http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/Default.asp

2) Reply comment by "ringtail1592":

I listened to the message. I wasn't shocked nor surprized. It is as Pastor MacArthur had said. This nation is not under God's blessing or protection anymore. That should had been obvious on Sept. 11, 2001 when the World Trade Center fell under terrorist attack. Even years before that. We are no more the no. 1 nation in the world for anything. Yet, we act like it.

The only thing that is keeping this nation from ending up like Pompeii is those who pray and follow Christ totally. I just hope God hangs off the last wrath so that we can bring more souls to Christ before the end.

3) My commentary on the above:

Note the utter hopelessness and despair running through this exchange. All is lost, It's All Over but the screaming, and the only thing we can hope for is "to bring more souls to Christ" before The End. THIS is all we can offer in response to the curled-lip-and-ironic-quip that is our diet of despair in the trendy outside?

4) PS: The “Pastor MacArthur” referenced by ringtail1592 is presumably the same as in this quote (from Slacktivist’s Left Behind Critique blog). Now doesn’t this just fill you with hope and make you want to live to see the future?

"The earth we inhabit is not a permanent planet. It is, frankly, a disposable planet—it is going to have a very short life. It’s been around six thousand years or so—that’s all—and it may last a few thousand more. And then the Lord is going to destroy it.

I’ve told environmentalists that if they think humanity is wrecking the planet, wait until they see what Jesus does to it."

-- John MacArthur

5) Doesn't that just make you want to live to see the future? THIS is what swept the Roman Empire like fire through a lake of gasoline/petrol 1900 years ago? Nihilism and futility with a Christian spin? I wonder if this John MacArthur has ever wondered WHY those outside the walls of his church look on Christians as a world-destroying death cult, "Chronicles of Riddick" Necromongers without the baroque aesthetics?

(Yes, this is turning into a rant. That LJ post & comment is what reached critical mass. I was raised on the "Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow" of Disneyland's Carousel of Progress, the bright future of pre-1968 SF. "To Seek out new life and new civilizations, To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before!" Not the Ultimate Escape Fantasy (Rapture) followed by the Ultimate Revenge Fantasy (Tribulation & Armageddon) as a spectator sport.)

Posted by: Ken | June 06, 2007 at 12:45 PM