An African-Anglican Zinger

I just found this at Crossroads - it's too good not to pass along.

Philip Jenkins in his book,  The New Faces of Christianity: Believing the Bible in the Global South, writes,

"Two bishops, were participating in a Bible study, one an African Anglican, the other a U. S. Episcopalian. As the hours went by, tempers frayed as the African expressed his confidence in the clear words of scripture, while the American stressed the need to interpret the Bible in the light of modern schlarship and contemporary mores. Eventually , the African bishop asked in exasperation,

If you don't  believe  the scripture, why did you bring it to us in the first place?

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Comments

[PamBG]

If you have any wish to dialogue with mainstream Christians (and maybe you don't), it's helpful not to post insults.

[pilgrim]

That's not an insult--it is a very valid question, which deserves a serious answer.

[Former Corn Chuckin' Champ]

Some people will think this sentence makes perfect sense: "Of course I believe in the Bible; it just doesn't say what it means due to hermeneutical considerations suggested by science."

Another example that half of America is oblivious to is, "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." Two generations of Americans have been weaned on this bogus DNC party platform plank.

[Dan]

I just finished the book last night. Excellent, as everything else I've read by Jenkins has been. But the picture he draws of how the Bible is read in the Global South is a good bit more complex than the anecdote would lead you to believe. Plenty to challenge conservatives, liberals, mainline and evangleical Chrisitans alike.

[Mwalimu Daudi]

A similar question was posed to me a few years ago by a Tanzanian Lutheran pastor when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) was considering ordaining non-celibate homosexual pastors and blessing same-sex "marriages". My wife and I were ELCA missionaries at the time, and this pastor is also the one who presided at our wedding.

I had given him a copy of "Journeying Together Faithfully", the document the ELCA distributed to congregations in preparation for the anticipated vote by the church-wide assembly on these issues. Our pastor, after reading the document and trying to follow the strange logic that sought to overturn traditional scholarship, asked me point-blank, "Do American Lutherans ever read their Bibles?"

I agree with Dan - Africans have views of Christianity and the Bible that do not fall into the categories we are used to hearing about in America. I will have to check out this book.

American Christians in mainline denominations also need to take the questions posed by Africans seriously. African Christian churches are growing (usually under trying circumstances), while many American mainline denominations such as the ELCA are dying off in a land of financial plenty. Could it be that people (whether Africans or Americans) want to hear the voice of the Shepherd rather than pseudo-scientific babble?

[jazztheologian]

I've read, "The Next Christendom" by Jenkins. Do you recomend this latest work as well? How do they compare?

jt

[PamBG]

I read my bible every day. I worry that conservative American Christianity thinks that Christianity is all about sexual mores and a check-list of doctrinal beliefs. I worry that conservative American Christianity spiritualises the bible and doesn't take a lot of the behavioural injunctions seriously - other than some chosen sexual ones.

I think we must read a different bible because there is an awful lot of text in my bible that goes on and on about justice and righteousness and helping the poor and the oppressed. The conservative American bible apparently says get married, stay faithful to your spouse, don't have an abortion[1], believe some specific docrines and that's all there is to being a Christian.

[1] Although I am not an inerrantist, I believe abortion is wrong. Surprise, FCCC

[PamBG]

There is also another issue here.

In some African cultures, there is a huge cultural imperative for a couple to have a very large wedding and invite everyone they know. It's not unusual for couples to be together for many, many years before they can afford to get married and I've not personally seen this dealt harshly with, although I did once hear an African television preacher preaching against this. I *have* attended the wedding of a couple who had a teenage son and the church's approach was "Finally, they have the money to get married, praise the Lord!"

There are also complex problems in cultures where men take more than one wife. What is the best solution in this case? Does wife number two move out of the household if doing so subjects her to abject poverty? If she doesn't move out on compassionate grounds, should we be cynical about her heretofore husband's claims to not be sleeping with her?

I'm inclined to view these situations on a case-by-case basis. I'd want to know the people before making a judgement. But should we question the faithfulness of the African church because not all of it is taking a ruthless "God's way or the highway" approach to its own issues of sexuality? On what basis does African Christianity claim the moral high ground in matters of sexuality?

I don't buy the argument that "Well, we may be committing polygamy and living together before marriage, but at least we think it's wrong."

[Mwalimu Daudi]

Legalism is hardly confined to American conservative Christians, PamBG. My former denomination (the ELCA) was as leftist as they come and had its own "checklist" (some are as follows):

(1) Increased spending on government welfare - for

(2) Iraq war - against

(3) Public financing of political campaigns - for

(4) Unfettered immigration of illegal aliens - for

The irony of this last position is that my wife is a legal immigrant from Tanzania, and the ELCA did nothing to help us - would not even respond to our requests for help while we were still missionaries trying to obtain her visa from a bureaucratic US embassy. Later, we found out from other ELCA missionaries that the ELCA has an unofficial policy of discouraging marriage between Americans and foreign nationals.

We simply grew tired of an organization that places priority on leftist political activism above the clear commandments of the Scriptures. Since when is government welfare the only Biblical way to aid the poor? And the other positions - talk about narrow-minded fundamentalism! I grew up in the American South, and the and the hardcore fundamentalists I knew were never this bad.

To answer another issue you raised, in Tanzania the question of polygamy was solved in the Tanzanian Lutheran Church by recognizing the first wife, but by having the husband continue to care for the other wives. They were not put out by the Church. I do not know about the rest of Africa.

On the issue of expensive weddings - my wife is Tanzanian, and this issue is one we had to deal with because of our decision to have a wedding in a Tanzanian church. However, I think you overstate the case. In Tanzanian weddings the African extended families of the couple engage in extensive, long negotiations about (a) the bride price, and (b) the size of the wedding. My mshega (marriage broker) and I negotiated for almost a year with various members of my wife's family. Such things are almost always worked out. The people who live together without getting married are almost always urban dwellers who tend to be more "Westernized" that rural people.

This involvement of the families of both the young man and woman is very nurturing and is sadly lacking in Western culture. Here is where the African church can claim the “moral high ground” to talked about, since Africans recognize that marriage is more that two people in lust.

[pilgrim]

And it's still a valid question...

[PamBG]

We simply grew tired of an organization that places priority on leftist political activism

Mwalimu Daudi, we are talking past each other, I think. I have no interest in making any sort of defense for American left-wing politics.

I also do not believe in taking a political stance first and then adjusting my theology according to the political stance. In my opinion, this is exactly what most American Christians do and it is wrong. But conservative Christians do it as well, only they don't admit to it.

I am sorry about your experience with the ELCA which seems unbelievably unChristian. However, that does not change what I see written in the bible.

The proposition of this post is that mainstream Christians do not believe in the bible and I say "poppycock" to that.

Also, in terms of "overstating" my experience with the weddings, I am simply giving you an example of my experience. The wedding I attended was Ghanain. Let's not pretend that all of Africa has one culture; Ghana itself has more than one culture. Also, my African Methodist colleagues are just as opposed to this attitude of "Everyone who is not an inerrantist is not a Christian" as I am.

[Mwalimu daudi]

PamBG, your comments quite honestly miss the mark. That many leaders of mainline denominations (including the ELCA) do not believe in the Bible is all too clear. Too many leaders of mainline denominations have made politics and culture a god. It is not what these leaders say say, it is what they do. And what they do is contrary to what the Bible teaches. I have both seen it and experienced it, and it is awful.

Mainline denominations have a great deal of soul-searching to do.

Pilgrim is 100% correct - it is a valid question mainline leaders should answer.

[PamBG]

PamBG, your comments quite honestly miss the mark. That many leaders of mainline denominations (including the ELCA) do not believe in the Bible is all too clear.

I really don't know how much more conversation there is to be had here. I'm not in a position to debate about how many ELCA minister are "real" Christians by your standards. You might very well be correct for all I know, but my original point still stands that making fun of us is a lousy witness.

The proposition in the original post seems to be that if one is a mainstream Christian who even entertains any idea of monogomous permanent relationships between gay people, that one does not believe the bible.

Making the supposition that this statement is objectively correct, can you point to me how the original post does anything constructive to help mainstream Christians hear the Good News? What's the idea? Make fun of mainstream Christians and then I'm going to say "Oh, they don't like me, now I've seen the light". Yes, I know you (plural) don't like me. It doesn't make the kick hurt less and it doesn't make me want to join you (plural).