Debrief on the Last Rick Warren Post

Last week I did my post "So Much for Being Nice to Rick Warren," and it generated a fair amount of comments.  I thought I would do a kind of post-mortem on that discussion, although "post-mortem" may be the wrong phrase, since the discussion still seems very much alive. 

I thought the discussion was excellent and it illustrates how the commenters are often more insightful than the writer of the original post.  I especially appreciated that the comments seemed to me more substantive than you will often get when discussing Rick Warren.  The pro-Warren folks weren't sycophants and the anti-Warren folks didn't come across to me as haters.

With that as an intro, here are a few of my reactions to the comments.

1. To boil down my the substance of my post, I was objecting to Warren's participation in Jewish worship services, as a participant rather than mere observer, and to his stated intention to not evangelize Jewish people.

2 I'll frame these objections another way with a couple of "thesis" type statements to which I invite reaction.  I contend the following: 

a. Based on the numerous warnings of Scripture against idolatry, it is impermissible for a Christian, much less a minister of the gospel, to participate in worship activities directed toward any deity, save the Christian God.  I do not believe this forbids the observation of such things.

b. Based on the life and writings of the apostle Paul, I believe he models for Christians, what our attitude toward Jewish evangelism ought to be - Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved (Romans 10:1)

The Holy Bible  : New International Version. 1996, c1984 . Zondervan: Grand Rapids

3. One of the main pushbacks that came in various forms is that what Warren is doing here is an allowable and effective means of bridge-building for the gospel. 

In response I agree on the importance of bridge building and think that Warren is probably one of the best bridge builders in the world today.  One of the things that came up in the comments on the last post was a discussion of Warren's initial church planting strategy.  He would knock on doors and go through a kind of qualifying process where, if someone was already a member of any religious group, he would thank them, wish them well, and move on.  I actually think that is great, it's a way of discerning who may be most open to hear the gospel.  And beyond that, Warren has been, and is doing, a wonderful job of building bridges for the gospel to all kinds of people.

But I don't believe we are allowed to worship other gods as a means of building bridges and in my mind that is what we are doing if we participate in the worship services of a non-Christian religion.

4. Along the same lines, I think it is deeply problematic to make public statements to the effect that you have no intention of trying to convert someone if you do have the intention of trying to convert them.   In saying that, I am not advocating being pushy.  I think you can say "I'm a Christian and would love for you to be one too, are you interested in hearing what I have to say?" If they say no, it's no problem and you can talk about whatever they want to talk about.   But at least you are not being disingenuous. 

Over at the eBay Atheist there is a good discussion about ethics in witnessing where a "former Christian" objects to "ends-justifies-the-means" tactics in evangelism.  I have no problem with Warren taking the low-key bridge-building approach to his Jewish friends, I just think he ought not to make public statements that he has no intention of trying to convert the Jews, if in fact he does.  To me that would come perilously close to "ends-justifies-the-means."

5. Andy Jackson said that he can't go with me on this one:

Wow!  David at Jollyblogger jumps all over Rick Warren. Apparently, he feels justified.  At this point, what we often read about Rick Warren is not always the case.  How can I say that?  Well, just look at his years of faithful gospel ministry.  Anyway, I know David’s heart is very sincere, but I just can’t join those who want to pile on.   

A couple of things in response.  I would love to see a clarification or repudation from Warren's camp regarding his statements about not seeking to convert Jews.  And, if there is something I am missing regarding his involvement in the worship services I would be glad to listen.  I am also willing to retract anything I have said that is in error here. 

As regards Warren's years of faithful gospel ministry I agree that has a bearing on this discussion.  The things I have raised concerns about here do not negate the immense good that Warren has done.   At the same time, Paul didn't let Peter's years of faithful ministry keep him from addressing Peter's errors in Galatians 2:11-14. 

And regarding piling on - I hope that in my post I didn't come across as a hater.  Andy is a friend and I join him in standing against the unfair criticism that Warren has received from many quarters.  I hope I am not piling on.  It's just that I happen to think that my criticisms in this particular matter are fair, but I will leave it to you the reader to decide if that is so or if I am deluding myself.  And I think that, due to Warren's stature in the Christian community these are important matters with wide ranging influence, so they ought to be addressed.

Chris Roberts summed up my position on the last post well:

"Rick Warren is a cool guy who does a lot of good stuff but needs to be more direct with the gospel and not so focused on purpose methods. Jews are cool too."

Thats all - I'm not saying Warren is evil, I just think he really, really blew it in this matter.

Comments

[Jim Fiasco]

In response to your belief that a believer is not permitted to worship false gods, I would agree wholeheartedly. I do think that often in the modern American evangelical church today often the message preached in the service, especially on OT scripture, could just as easily be preached in the jewish temple. I mean by that statement that often a purpose, a higher goal, a wisdom of God is preached, but unfortunately all too often the sermon is not Christ-centered. Too many preachers teach the third use of the law, reformed teachers especially, and do not teach in the context of our salvation in Christ alone. So my guess is that Warren may not recognise the difference in the two styles of preaching. I have seen my pastor preach an entire sermon of God and David and never mention Jesus at all, and when I questioned him his response was that he left that to the other songs, and the baptism. Many churches don't even have that to fall back to.

[Jeremy Pierce]

How is it relevant that Christians shouldn't partake in worship services of religions that worship other gods? We're talking about Jews here. Jews who aren't Christians do have false beliefs about God, but that itself means that they're false beliefs about God and therefore not about some other (nonexistent) being. God isn't another God, even if the people worshiping him get some very important things wrong in their understanding of him. See II Kings 17 and Isaiah 29:13 for clear scriptural examples of this.

Regarding one other thing, I think I missed something. I thought Warren gave a lecture to a group of Jewish leaders outside the context of any worship services. Was there an additional occasion of his worshiping with them?

[David Cho]

Excellent post again, David.

You are a bright spot in the midst of all the hysteria and paranoia surrounding Rick Warren. You raise some serious issues which Mr. Warren should respond to.

In the future, I am hoping to see your criticism of the Purpose Driven Church movement, and learn what the hysteria is all about.

[cavman]

David piled on? Nah. Expressing a legitimate concern is not piling on. If he were always on Warren's case, or doing just because everyone else does... different story.

[Catez]

I think you've takern a fair approach David. The question I have is to whether Warren actually made the statement that was reported. It would be useful to get verification of that. Jeremy's comment has raised another question for me - re: where he was speaking.

I've appreciated many points you've made in both posts which are very clear on theor own regarding evangelism and building bridges. Excellent thoughts there. Thanks.

[lisa4given]

This statement reminds me of Billy Graham: "Well, just look at his years of faithful gospel ministry." who clearly now has an ecumenical Gospel and alot of people willing to defend him because they love him so much. I do not say that to be divisive. I say that so that we are careful not to be men followers, defending men, but failing to defend the true Gospel... and the need to proclaim it to both the Jews and Gentiles without compromise.

Good post.

[Kathleen]

In the Book of Acts a good portion of those who were converted involved religious people, it seems (the Ethiopian, Saul, Cornelius, Lydia, and even some Athenians, etc.) So, perhaps religious people are the ones MOST ready to be converted rather than those who take no interest at all in spiritual things?

[Paul Helms]

"We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:2-10)

This is a more general observation, but I think it especially applies in the case of Rick Warren and the wider topic of what constitutes a 'faithful Gospel ministry'. The more and more I listen to Gospel presentations these days, the less and less I'm convinced that we really preach the Gospel in power of the Spirit and to the glory of God. I recently watched a video of Warren on YouTube talking about the Gospel and his explanation seemed very me-centered and psychological, and frankly, powerless. I believe the Gospel with all of my heart, thanks be to God! But when I listen to a man like John Piper and a man like Rick Warren, I see huge differences. Piper isn't concerned that people just say a prayer to Jesus asking for forgiveness -- he is concerned with the whole of the Gospel of salvation. This includes our entire lives from justification to sanctification to glorification (cf. Rom 8). All of this comes through a continued faith in Christ and growth in Him, but will purpose-driven methods really change anyone? I fear that the power of the Holy Spirit is lost on Warren, who seems more keen on how to use manipulative political and psychological techniques to convince people of the validity of Jesus but not to speak the truth in love so that the Spirit might work in them to lay down their lives for the Lord of glory.

I don't see any large reason to heap loads of honor on Rick Warren as of yet, but I certainly don't want to just bash him. This is a concern that I have with most of American Christianity today; the fact that Rick Warren tops our lists of influential pastors only perhaps adds weight to my observations.

[Kyle]

I'm behind in my reading, so I missed the first edition of this discussion, but I'd like to know: How do you distinguish Rick Warren participating in Jewish worship from the apostle Paul entering the Jewish temple as a Jew and performing all the normal Jewish rites of worship?

[Louie Marsh]

Interesting discussion - somehow I missed your original article.

It would be nice if Rick would/could respond to this. But think about it, if he responded to even one tenth of the criticism he gets, he'd be doing that all day long.

Warren isn't perfect, sometimes I'd like to shake him, but then again neither am I perfect.

I can learn from him, benefit from him and respect and love him without agreeing with all he says and does.

I suspect he'd expect nothing less than for all of us to test what he says by Scripture, and then press ahead with God's purpose for our lives.

[John]

David,

I appreciate the tone of this post and I never thought you were joining the Slice crew in Warren bashing.

That said, and at the risk of piling on, Jeremy pretty well summed up my reaction. Do Jews worship a different God? They certainly don't know God as fully (since they don't know Jesus), but the Torah is scripture so they have true, revealed knowledge of the true God. Because of that, there may even be things we can learn from them at times.

Obviously I would not say the same about other religions, such as Islam or Mormonism, which have corrupted true revelation with false, but I would argue religious Jews are a special case. Still in need of salvation from Jesus, but not without some true knowledge of God.

Now if Warren participated in temple sacrifice I'd have a serious problem with that. That would represent a betrayal of Christ, in my view. However, that doesn't seem to be what happened here. He was not in any way denying Christ except by not speaking his name in this venue.

But as I said before, everyone there already associates him with Jesus. The question on every mind was not, "Who is this guy and who does he believe in?" it was "What does this world-famous ambassador for Jesus have to say?" The name was there without ever being said. I think that's quite powerful.

If the audio ever gets posted, I'd like to hear it.

[Gareth Russell]

I want to commend you David, on your gracious attitude.

[John]

David,

Sorry to bloviate with a second reply, but I just reread the original piece that started this. I think it's worth quoting the ending:

I have no doubt the people who turned to Warren to help them reinvent synagogues for the 21st century can and will learn a lot from the man’s organizational skills. But the deeper message he conveys, his unstintingly devoted and enthusiastic faith — how in the world can we Jews learn that?

Maybe I'm hearing what I want to, but to me that sounds like a very powerful question. "How can we learn to be more like this Christian preacher -- not just organizationally, but in our hearts?" Hmmmm. All I can think is, God grant that I should have such failures in witnessing.

[Brent]

I am a little disgusted by the tendency to tiptoe around Rick Warren, oh, so carefully, so as not to be like those "haters" on other sites who are "hysterical" and "wild-eyed". What the other sites are providing, like Slice of Laodicea and the Critical Issues Commentaries from Twin City Fellowship is more direct speech which is in short supply these days. Everyone is trying so hard to bend over backwards to not say anything "hate-filled" that they miss what we are called to do, speak truth. What business in the world does a Christian pastor have doing in a synagogue worshipping and not preaching Christ crucified? Has everyone lost their minds? Have we forgotten what St. Stephen did when he preached to the Jews and what happened to him as a result? He did not fill stadiums with fawning people. He got stoned. Jolly Blogger, stop apolgozing. Clear voices are the need of the hour and so are faithful pastors who will not sell out for popularity.

[David Cho]

Brent, I have waded through the sites you mention for months now, and have learned very little about the Emergent movement and Rick Warren. The sites say more about the character of the site operators. Shrillness and gotchas are only useful in preaching to the choir, and if that is the purpose of "direct talk," so be it. I see nothing but useless conjectures and vitriol.

Do you ever read dailykos.com and moveon.org? Find me one person who is not firmly in the liberal camp but finds these websites useful and informative. The sites you mention are the Christian versions of dailykos and moveon, except they are a lot more shrill than their leftwing counterparts.

From David here, now I am finally learning why Rick Warren warrants serious concerns and that he has some explaining to do.

[csheidler]

In response to Jeremy and John, I agree that the issue of Jewish worship vs. Christian worship is a sticky and difficult issue. For me, here's what tips the balance:

Jews, quite simply, hold that http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm>Trinitarianism is polytheistic idolatry. This has been the opinion of Jewish thinkers as influential in modern Judaism as Moses Maimonides, almost universally recognized among Jews as the most important Jewish teacher of the last 1000 years. For Christians, however, Trinitarianism is an indispensible tenet of Gospel Truth. As far back as http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-03/anf03-43.htm#P10902_3061035>Tertullian, the Church has insisted that the denial of the Trinity is incompatible with Biblical Christianity. Quite simply, Jews insist that God is not Trinity; we insist that He is, and we are called to worship Him as such.

It simply is not true that 'false beliefs about the true God' is insufficient to warrant the Christian's avoidance of participation in the accordant worship services. John (rightly) states that he would avoid worshiping with Mormons because they have corrupted true revelation with false revelation...but have not the Jews also done this (implicitly, if not explicitly)? In insisting that the Old Testament ALONE is the inspired Truth of God, they are ipso facto corrupting true revelation (the Old Testament) with false 'revelation' (the notion that the New Testament is not also inspired and true). On John's own criteria, then, the Christian is precluded from participating in Jewish worship.

Jeremy brings up a couple of key passages from Scripture. The first is a reference to 2 Kings 17. While he didn't say so specifically, I'm assuming that he's referring to vv. 27-41, wherein people are worshiping the LORD, but are simultaneously worshiping other gods as well. The problem with using this as justification for worshiping with others who 'may not have the whole idea just right' is that it avoids the explicit condemnation of this practice given in 17:33-39, even going so far as to imply (see v. 34 in the NIV) that this 'worship' is actually NOT worship.

Similarly, Jeremy's citation of Isa. 29:13 is unhelpful here, as it avoids the larger context of the book itself. In Isa. 1:11-17, God has already expressed His Holy hatred of the false worship that is being offered by the sinful Israelites--He calls their offerings "meaningless" and "detestable" and says unequivocally that He HATES the attempts of Israelites who have "spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him" (1:4).

So in fact, the verses that Jeremy has cited actually serve as excellent examples of why Christians should NOT participate in non-Christian worship. And as if that weren't enough, we have Paul's explicit statement in Galatians 1:6-9 that adhereing to ANYTHING other than the Gospel he preached was worhty of eternal condemnation.

Quite simply, I can find absolutely no warrant in Scripture for permitting Biblical Christians to participate in non-Christian worship of any blend or flavor; to worship with non-messianic Jews would be nothing less than a violation of the 1st Commandment ("no other gods before Me"), as it would involve giving worship to a god who is fundamentally different from the God Who is revealed to us in the Person of Christ through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

[stan]

John referred to synagogues as "synagogues of Satan" and labeled those who attended them as false Jews, a theme echoed by Paul. What has changed and why would anyone want to worship in one? Warren the soul-winner needs to preach the Gospel clearly to them in the full power and courage of the Holy Spirit. "To the Jew first and also to the Greeks..."

[Brendt]

David, you didn't come across as a hater. Though to be honest, and with all due respect to them, I have to think that Andy and others who linked to your last Warren post mischaracterized it badly.

[Douglas]

...I'm not saying Warren is evil,....

Sir,

Rick Warren constantly twists, distorts, tortures God's Word, especially evident in his "Purpose Driven Life" book, and that's really evil, isn't it?

Rick Warren is not a faithful gospel minister because he does not preach a faithful full-orbed biblical gospel. Not publicly, in any material of his that I have seen or heard so far. His "Purpose Driven Life" book is a very very very deceptive piece of work and he should be utterly ashamed for having ever produced it and placed it out there in the market place. It is fraudulent and he makes a fortune from it. It is deadly. How many have read that book, prayed that prescribed prayer he gives on pages 58-59, who now think they are Christians but in actual fact are not? There is not a shred of repentance prior to and up to that prayer. No true gospel has been even remotely preached in the first seven days (or in anywhere else in the whole book for that matter) leading up to that prayer in "The Purpose Driven Life" book. Rick Warren even has the audacity to say: "If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God." That is a very serious deception, he has no authority to welcome anyone into the family of God, that is God's divine prerogative alone. It is as if Rick Warren has taken on the attribute of omniscience for himself and knows who is now in the family of God???? He is deceived himself.

The only bridges he is building are ones for people to cross over into his "Purpose Driven" movement or to purchase the "Purpose Driven" program. He is only interested in Jews embracing his "Purpose Driven" paradigm, which is altogether different than the biblical gospel. It is a redefinition of biblical Christianity. No where in his P.E.A.C.E paradigm for instance has he room for evangelism, it is just not there. He preaches and teaches an easy believism social gospel which is no gospel at all and if you cannot see that he has done this, very cleverly too I might add, then something or someone is blinding you. You will be held accountable to God for wavering upon this issue, for "walking the middle road," for not clearly and concisely exposing Rick Warren's false teachings for your readership and for the people you pastor, those who trust you and love you. You will have to give an account to God if you do not repent of misleading people regarding Rick Warren's false teachings, which have just about taken over the whole church, world wide. When I read your commentaries about Rick Warren and his teachings, you remind me of a double minded man. You are not sounding the trumpet clearly.

Here are some insights from R. C. Sproul's book "Willing to Believe" about building bridges that you may find helpful and insightful:

"Robert Godfrey, president of Westminster Theological Seminary in Escondido, California, recently suggested that I write a book about "the myth of influence." I was startled by the suggestion because I did not know what the meant. He explained that this phrase refers to the modern evangelical penchant to "build bridges" to secular thought or to groups within the larger church that espouse defective theologies.

The mythical element is the naive assumption that one can build bridges that move in one direction only. Bridges are usually built to allow traffic to move in two directions. What often happens when we relate to others is that we become the influencees rather than the influencers. In an effort to win people to Christ and be "winsome," we may easily slip into the trap of emptying the gospel of its content, accommodating our hearers, and removing the offense inherent in the gospel. To be sure, our own insensitive behavior (something I am very well aware of in my own life) can add an offense to the gospel that is not properly part of it. We should labor hard to avoid such behavior. But to strip the gospel of those elements that unbelievers find repugnant is not an option.

Martin Luther once remarked that wherever the gospel is preached in its purity, it engenders conflict and controversy. We live in an age that abhors controversy, and we are prone to avoid conflict. How dissimilar this atmosphere is from that which marked the labor of Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles. The prophets were immersed in conflict and controversy precisely because they would not accommodate the Word of God to the demands of a nation caught up in syncretism. The apostles were engaged in conflict continuously. As much as Paul sought to live peaceably with all men, he found rare moments of peace and little respite from controversy.

That we enjoy relative safety from violent attacks against us may indicate a maturing of modern civilization with respect to religious toleration. Or it may indicate that we have so compromised the gospel that we no longer provoke the conflict that true faith engenders."
pages 19-20
Emphasis mine

Is this short section, teaching about "repentance" from Rick Warren, true or not? >>>

8. Changing the way I act is the fruit of repentance
"Technically, repentance is not behavioral change. Behavior change is the result of repentance. Repentance does not mean forsaking your sin. Repentance simply means to change your mind. John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:8 (NIV), “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” In other words, “OK, you’ve changed your mind about God, about life, about sin, about yourself — now let’s see some fruit as a result of it.”

or is the "true truth" >>>

The Bible’s Answer To The Question: What Is A Christian?
by Wayne Mack

"True repentance involves sin. It involves not only a change of attitude toward sin but also a change of action in regard to sin. The Bible says, “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him: and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon” (Isaiah 55:7). “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy” (Proverbs 28:13). Further more, true repentance involves sorrow for sin and a forsaking of sin because it is displeasing to God. The person who is truly repentant doesn’t sorrow over sin and forsake it just because he is afraid of the consequences, but primarily because he has displeased God. This grieves him and causes him to turn from sin. More than anything else the truly repentant person wants the smile and the favor of God. He hates sin and forsakes it because he knows that God hates sin (Ezekiel 36:25-32; Zechariah 12:10; Luke 15:18; Psalm 51:1-12; Luke 22:59-62). The true Christian has repented of his sin. He is sorry for his sin. He hates his sin and he is constantly forsaking his sin because it is displeasing to God. Unless a person has done this, he has no right to believe that he is a Christian. Jesus said, “Except ye repent; ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3)."
Emphasis mine

Is "repentance" the forsaking of our sins or not?

I believe Rick Warren has so redefined "biblical repentance," that to him, now all it basically means is: "changing the way you think," as in the "power of positive/possibility thinking" in line with "Norman Vincent Peale/Robert Schuller's" teachings. Repentance means far more than just "change your mind." Rick Warren has concealed the true, deeper meaning of "repentance" and what it fully entails. Rick Warren does not go into a full-orbed, in depth study of what "repentance" is, anywhere that I can find, such as is found in these article and essays for example.

"Repentance is a grace, and must have its daily operation, as well as other graces. A true penitent must go on from faith to faith, from strength to strength; he must never stand still or turn back. True repentance is a continued spring, where the waters of godly sorrow are always flowing. 'My sin is ever before me'." - Thomas Brooks

Thankfully, Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel have renounced and rejected "The Purpose Driven Movement" and are recalling all of Rick Warren's teachings (pdf file), at least Mr. Smith has discernment in that area, even though he has problems with certain aspects of Calvinism.

Please, get yourself a copy of pastor Bob DeWaay's book "Redefining Christianity: Understanding The Purpose Driven Movement" and study it carefully, along with your Bible and "The Purpose Driven Life" book, thoughtfully and prayerfully. If you cannot afford the book, I am more than happy to send a cheque from here in New Zealand to you there to cover the cost of Mr. DeWaay's book. Also, can you please, please listen to the broadcasts on Oneplace.com discussing this very important issue:

Critical Issues Commentary - Pastor Bob DeWaay

I do NOT hate Rick Warren. I critique his false teachings. I hate what Rick Warren has done and is doing, and that is, he is deceiving millions of people around the world with his "Purpose Driven" gospel, which is no gospel at all!

Please forgive me for my long post, you may not want to hear what I have to say but I do need to say it. I have been having a real struggle with this issue since I read your other post, "So Much for Being Nice About Rick Warren", from July the 20th. I realize I will be accused of being a "Warren Hater" and a "Warren Basher" but I will just have to give that over to the LORD!

"Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason... my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen". Martin Luther

[Martin]

Refreshing-a well balanced article on Rick Warren. Your final point is the whole point-Warren should be there to "win them." "For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified...."

[Eric Olason]

Blah, blah, blah, blah. This entire discussion sums up everything wrong with the greater Christian community at large: all talk, no action. You guys, we can sit around and talk about all this crap for days on end, this theology and that, this church style and that, this style of ministry and that. None of it matters. It's all a distraction. Jesus did not come to earth to debate theology - even when the Bible talks of him amazing those in the temple with his knowledge of the scriptures, it is but a mere footnote practically. What Jesus did was to rock everyone's idea of who God is and how he feels about us. The idea that he would come to this earth and say "hey, quit all the debating, all the rules of the Old Testament, all the religious hierarchy and love Me, love your neighbor, love yourself as God loves you." That was radical. Rick Warren's "theology" aside, what I do know is that our time would be better spent going to a soup kitchen, bringing a single mother dinner, reading to our kids than blogging about who said what and who wrote what boring book. We are OBESE with spiritual knowledge, and somehow we think that hearing a sermon that discusses Karl Barth or Dietrich Bonhoeffer will make us better lovers of Christ and men. The greatest sermon ever preached was 100% life application - it was Jesus telling us what kind of character we should strive for as we move through this life. Nothing about monotheism or the trinity. Repentance and full understanding of the punishment deserved for our sinful nature is paramount, but not in making us feel damned and shamed - it should make us humble and dumbfounded that God loves us enough to sacrifice his Son instead. Truly, hell and damnation doesn't motivate you to live your life differently, and you are kidding yourself if you think it will motivate "converts". Seeing that God loves us and has a purpose, however cliche that may sound, is what makes us realize we were created to live better, to serve more and to love others as Christ has loved us. Let's quit talking and debating, and start loving people; I'm not talking about the starving in Africa, I'm talking about the lonely woman in the checkout line or the akward coworker whom no one will eat lunch with. That's the call of Christ.