Trackback Courtesy

Dear fellow bloggers,

I just wanted to give a quick word on trackback courtesy.  Trackbacks are a wonderful blogging tool.  If you are commenting on something someone else said in a post on their blog you can send them a trackback to let them know you are talking about them.  This is a courtesy to the one you are talking about and it gives them the opportunity to go to your blog to see what you are saying about them.  That way they can interact with you and can keep the conversation going.

But in the spirit of courtesy, if you are going to trackback to someone please do talk about them in your post.  A couple of weeks ago LaShawn mentioned that she was not accepting trackbacks from people who don't talk about her post in their posts.  I actually thought it a bit odd that she would have to say that.  After all, I just assumed that everyone who trackbacked to another blog had a link to that post on their own blog.  But in the last couple of weeks I have received trackbacks on posts where the other blogger doesn't even mention anything I have written.  True, they are usually commenting on the same subject, but they don't mention my post.

What this means is that these people are putting a link to themselves on my blog but not putting a link to me on their blog.  This smacks of link-whoring, where you are just trying to get more links to your blog on other blogs. If you trackback to a post of mine I assume it is because you are interacting with something I have written.  If you aren't interacting with me, then why are you trackbacking to me, unless it is simply to build your own stats.  And though I am not aware of where I have done this before, if I have done it to you please let me know so I can make amends.

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to get more links to their blogs.  I like links and am happy to provide open trackbacks where others can draw attention to their own blogs through mine.  But, remember that trackbacks are a simple courtesy and courtesy suggests that if you are going to put a link to your blog on mine, you should at least mention me, via a link, in the post from which you trackbacked.  It doesn't have to be much - a simple "Jollyblogger is also talking about this subject" is sufficient.   Thanks for your time in reading this.

Courteously yours,
The Jollyman

Comments

[Steve Cox]

I will have to admit to a lack of knowledge on this one. Due to the fact that I'm relatively knew to blogging I've wondered, but not searched out the info, about trackbacking.

My apologies to those I may have offended, as I'm sure I have shorted some. This will be at the top of my to-do list tomorrow a.m.

Thanks for the heads up!

[pilgrim]

Ditto-
And I am about to publish an entry with links to various Reformation Day articles on various blogs-including yours.

[Cindy Swanson]

Good words, Jollyblogger. Also, sometimes I'm in a hurry or just a little lazy, and neglect to take time to do the trackback thing. But you're right; it's common courtesy and can be beneficial to everyone.

[The Trackbacker]

Trackback to popular blogs without mentioning them on your own blog, just to increase traffic and gain more links?

What a great idea! Thanks for the tip, David!

HaloScan, here I come!

[Jacob Allee]

I may be guilty also. Not intended at all though. I'm not sure I understand how the track back deal is supposed to work. Sorry, I'll try and figure it out.

[The Dane]

I haven't availed myself of the whole trackback thing. And there is a reason. It's ugly.

When trackback started being developed a couple years ago, I thought it might be a cool idea. And the idea of it is cool. It means no more checking referrer reports to discover who's linking to your blog. Unfortunately, implementation is sketchy at best.

If trackbacks could somehow be logged off to the side in an unobtrusive manner, I might find myself looking more kindly upon them. As it is, they sit like a rotting halibut on the page, stinking up the place. On a web where the state of blog design is lamentable already, the last thing we need is the kind of stacato breakage that the typical display of trackbacks offer.

For instance, O Jolly One, if I finish reading one of your posts and then want to check out the comments, it's fine if there are no trackbacks. But if there are (as in your recent post on Reformation Day), there is a direct break in thought, in flow, and in design. A presentation flaw has been introduced - and the more trackbacks a post receives, the greater the break. And then... general yuckiness ensues. That's the technical design term.

And so, that is why I stay away from using the official trackback systems. I find it discourteous to the reader. Still, I try to be courteous in alerting bloggers to their articles to which I've linked - through either email or comments. I'm not trying to hype myself into better traffic, so that's not my issue with trackbacks - essentially, I just care about the reader experience. And as a reader, I can personally say that trackbacks (as they exist now) diminish my joy of the blog.

[Sherry]

As far as I can tell, my blog automatically sends a "trackback" or some kind of comment/notification whenever I link to someone else's post. As far as receiving trackbacks when someone links to me, I don't usually. I don't know why. I usually just discover it later. I can't figure how you would trackback to someone without linking to their blog in the first place. I suppose it falls under the category of things I don't need to know.

[David Wayne]

Sherry - I just checked and I don't think you have trackbacks enabled on your blog. What publishing platform are you using?

[adam]

the 'courtesy' you're talking about here would generate both a pingback _and_ a trackback.
if the one idea doesn't make the other obsolete, then there needs to be greater distinction between the two.
a trackback is essentially a comment. it says,'my comment is long enough, i'm going to post it as my own entry'
a pingback says 'hey, i want the people reading my blog, to go read this article someone else wrote'
i might want to comment on something you've written, but not direct people to read something i disagree with. that's my option, since the trackback link is not the same as the post link. similarly, then, you should have the option to moderate/delete my trackback.

the sum of all this is: trackbacks are not mature enough yet to have a consistant interface, let alone ettiquette rules. they're still too 'early-adopter' for most people to use, anyway.

[Catez]

For those who don't have trackback on their blogs you can use Simple Tracks or Wizbang - you'll find them on Google. They are easy to use (I think Simple Tracks is better) - they only take a minute to send a trackback on.
David thanks for posting this. I've occasionally had trackbacks that don't even mention a post.
For some reason I cannot see the trackback URL on yours and some other typepad blogs so I leave a comment instead.
For the Dane - I don't see trackbacks as an eyesore on a page. There's different formats anyway. I trackback unless for some reason the blog won't let me get one through - then I leave a comment.

[The Dane]

Catez, I appreciate that and I'm happy to allow people to utilize trackback on their sites without harrassment from me - I'm just sharing my personal taste as a space designer. For context, I also find blogrolls aesthetically distasteful - which is why mine appears on a page seperate from my blog.

I just wanted David to know that there was a reason behind my madness of not using his trackbacks when I link an article on his site - specifically, my desire not to contribute to something that currently (in my view) detracts from the blog experience.

And again, if trackbacks took a different form, I'd be willing to take another look at them. For now, it's just more excess at a time when I think we should be stressing minimalism.

[David Wayne]

Dane - I appreciate your comments on this - you are far more astute on the technical and artistic aspects of things than I am. You see alot of things I don't.

[Cruzer]

I don't understand the trackback either and not sure I have the time and ability to figure it all out for a while anyway.

[Mark Daniels]

David:
I have to tell you that I haven't yet been able to figure out how to trackback. Even when I read instructions, as those given on LaShawn Barber's site, this technologically-challenged dufus hasn't "gotten it.' I'll try to figure it out in the next several days. You make a good point.

Mark Daniels

[Catez]

For the Dane who said:
"For now, it's just more excess at a time when I think we should be stressing minimalism."

Who is "we" and why "should" "we" be stressing minimalism?

I am just so resistant to "shoulds" in blogging that aren't part of normal courtesy and etiquette. i.e. I think tracking back or leaving a comment leting some-one know you linked them is a courtesy as part of a conversation online.
Having blogrolls or not I see as up to a blogger. Likewise being minimalist or not.

[Catez]

A little more in response to the Dane:

"if trackbacks took a different form, I'd be willing to take another look at them."

Haloscan's trackbacks show up unobtrusively. I did se a way that a person could change the code so that only Haloscan trackbacks are added to a template i.e. if you didn't want their commetns feature you could remove it. That's just an example. I see what you've said but I disagree - I don't see trackbacks, even in the format on this blog, as an eyesore or a detraction from the aesthetics of the blog or the blogging experience. For me they enhance the blogging experience actually.
None of which is meant to tell you to trackback - but simply to point out that what one person sees as an unnecessary detraction another sees as a welcome addition.

[The Dane]

Hey Catez, by saying *should*, I am expressing a desire to see the web be a more aesthetitcally pleasing place. Not any sort of moral implication to that. One of the hallmarks of the open web is that design concerns are rather pushed aside, mostly because most content creators are content creators not content designers. Which is fine and good. Only, as one who is aesthetically sensitive, I'd like to see the creators and designers work together to craft a better web experience.

Really, this *is* happening, albeit slowly. The evidence is the comparison between the web in '96 vs. the web now. Or even in the blogging world, blogs circa 2000 and blogs now. Still, there's a long way to go and still the overriding concept for most bloggers is Glut Information at All Costs.

It reminds me of when someone first begins using the toolsets available in Adobe's Photoshop. Their first impulse is to use everything (filters, adjustments, hue changes) and those projects are neat starts, but visually overloaded. After some experience and tempering, users learn to tone themselves down, creating more visually striking and pleasant creations due to their self-discipline.

When you say that you like trackbacks, are you saying you prefer the way they look? They way they fall on the page? Do you mean that they are intuitive for you and are used exactly as you'd expect or imagine they should be used? Or did you have to look into it and figure out what they were and why they were sitting like that on a page? For my part, I think they could be implemented much better.

As far as whether they enhance the blogging experience, I never said they didn't. In fact, I see their value and was quite interested in seeing how they would progress. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much progression in them and see them as an enhancement that has yet to come to fruit. I think if they do ever mature into what they could be - I think then you'll understand what I meant by *should*. 'Cuz really, shouldn't we be trying to make things as good as we can? And isn't a more intuitive and pleasing design a good thing?

[Catez]

"When you say that you like trackbacks, are you saying you prefer the way they look? They way they fall on the page? Do you mean that they are intuitive for you and are used exactly as you'd expect or imagine they should be used? Or did you have to look into it and figure out what they were and why they were sitting like that on a page?"

Heh. A lot of question (said in a French accent).

I like the way they are on this blog. But I prefer the Haloscan kind - as they are separate and people can follow a comment thread and then check out trackbacks - since trackbacks do take a little more time to read usually. In terms of "figuring them out" I think Mr. Jolly's format is better.

I understand what you are saying better now. I did fiddle about with my blogger blog and make it a bit more aesthetically appealing. Some-one who isn't a blogger emailed me and said they liked my site and found it well organised and easy to follow - so I must be doing ok. I think the thing is we have a combination of readers - regular bloggers who follow conversations, and people who see it as a website where they get info and then go. Or maybe I should just say that I have that combination as not all blogs are the same in that regard.
Aesthetics are important - and as a scientist I appreciate that how one presents the data is pretty important. So I agree. I just don't see trackbacks as a huge eyesore. To me they are usually interesting and there if I want to follow them. You seem to be talking about two things - aesthetics and user friendliness.
Aesthetically I see no problem with trackbacks myself. An eye of the beholder issue perhaps? And the user friendly aspect I don't see as a huge problem - "read more" speaks for itself.
Is it "intuitive" for me? I don't think so - when it comes to pages on a screen I'm analytical. I suppose one can develop analysis to the point that it becomes so second nature that it seems intuitive.

Of course the other issue is how much time one wants to spend on a blog, whether one wants to spend money etc. I blog in my own time and basically I set up the layout the way I like it. I figure at least one other person in the universe will too. Turns out to be a few more than one do.
Of course the flipside of what you are saying is the beautifully designed blog which has very little that it actually says. But then to each their own.

[Jared]

Another monkey to toss into the wrench:

Sometimes trackbacks don't work. I always try to trackback folks I'm talking about, but the trackback doesn't always work (either on my end or on the linked-to blogger's end).
Bottom line: Don't always assume that the people who are discussing you but don't trackback you haven't tried. Sometimes technology doesn't obey.

As for people who do trackback but don't actually mention you in their post . . . I'm with you on that one.