More on Christians and Pagans

Sometime in the far distant past, like one or two months ago, I got into a bit of discussion with Bill Wallo at Walloworld about atheists and theists, Christians and pagans. I wasn't able to find his post on the subject, but basically his idea is that paganism is closer to Christianity than atheisim or naturalism. I believe, among other things, he argued that we share some elements of a common worldview. I argued against his point, to the effect that paganism still posited an alternative religion and wouldn't really get anyone closer to Christianity. Well, today, I found the following quote from G. K. Chesterton that is strongly in his favor, at least from a historical standpoint.

I am very glad that our fashionable fiction seems to be full of a return to paganism, for it may possibly be the first step of a return to Christianity. Neo-pagans have sometimes forgotten, when they set out to do everything the old pagans did, that the final thing the old pagans did was to get christened. 3/20/1926

I am not sure what historical events Chesterton has in mind, but I can think of at least the Celtics and the Romans in that regard. So, looks like Bill had a good point and I had a . . . uh, . . . well, . . . not quite as good point.

Comments

[Diane Roberts]

I have to take exception to Mr. Wallo's observations. On the contrary, Protestant Christianity (and I emphasize Protestant, as opposed to Catholicism which IMO IS paganistic) is quite the opposite of paganism.

First, it is not fatalistic but hopeful.

Second, the "gods" are not scary, but [the] God is a loving Father although also righfully a judge for the wicked and sins.

Third, Christianity requires nothing more than faith in a Saviour as opposed to "doing" things to please the gods or "God."

Unfortunately, much Protestantism today, especially in Third Wave revival Charismatic cirlces, is more like Catholicism and paganism than Chrisitanity. T

For example, they tell us you can easily lose your salvation if you blink wrong; they tell you to be holy by keeping feasts, praying and fasting, being "close" to God and chasing God, etc. This is just another rerun of mystic Catholicism. They even have their pope (head apostle), cardinals (the other apostles), priests (pastors with full authority OVER elders), prophets, etc.

Although I am a Pentecostal-Presbyterian (try that on for size...LOL) in theology, this new Charimaticism and other so-called Protestant Finneyisms is deadly. Welcome back to paganism.

[David]

Diane,

I think you and Bill may be talking about apples and oranges here, and please forgive me if in any way I have misrepresented him. I think his point was that Pagans are closer to a Christian worldview that naturalists. I think he would agree that both are the polar opposites of the Christian faith, but at the same time, the pagan acceptance of supernaturalism renders them more able to understand some Christian concepts than hard boiled naturalists who completely rule out the supernatural.
Here I am defending his position when I originally had a bit of disagreement because I saw paganism as positing a rival religion to Christianity. Thus paganism would be more deadly in the sense that it's counterfeit of Christianity was all the more dangerous because it's supernatural worldview made it look a little more religious, and thus deceptive, than naturalism.
I think that Chesterton was simply giving a historical anecdote that enhanced Mr. Wallo's position - it didn't necessarily prove it, but it certainly helped it.
So, I'm not pitting you against him, like I said I think you are coming at it at a different angle. I do agree wholeheartedly with you when you say that our current fascination with mysticism is more pagan than Christian. I also support your snide comment about Finney - I think he has unleashed more trouble in the church than we can imagine.
Presbyterian Pentecostal, eh? You're right, that's a new on me, but I will say that it is akin to "reformed-charismatic" of which there is a growing number. Have you seen Adrian Warnock's blog - he's a card carrying reformed-charismatic?
Thanks again for commenting.
David

[Michael]

I think I'd have to agree that paganism (or any religion, for that matter) is less opposed to Christianity than naturalism was. Just looking at the categories - atheism vs. theism - most if not all major religions and belief systems would fit into the latter, which gives them a certain amount of common ground.

Here's a quote from J.R.R. Tolkien that shows his views on the subject:
“We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a "sub-creator" and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbor, while materialistic "progress" leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.”
(Carpenter, Humphrey. Tolkien: The Authorized Biography. 147.)

Similar ideas are developed in the writings of C.S. Lewis, especially Mere Christianity.

[Puzzled]

Diane,
Are you a follower of Zane Hodges'
easy believism? Was Jesus a pagan for saying that if we are to be His disciples, we are to take up our Cross and follow Him?

[David]

Puzzled,
I hate to speak for someone else, but in reading her comments, I don't think that Diane gave an indication that she accepts Zane Hodges' easy believism. She says she is reformed-pentecostal, so the "reformed" part of her definition would go against any kind of easy believism and her criticisms of Finneyism would lead me to believe she is not an easy-believism advocate. I won't go any further than that, but I didn't get the impression she was advocating easy believism. Diane, if you read this, please feel free to chip in and defend/explain yourself.
David