Still more on the will of God

A few days ago Adrian Warnock e-mailed me asking if I would like to engage in a little friendly debate regarding my prior posts on finding the will of God. I said sure - love to. Adrian said that this is probably one of the few areas that he and I disagree on. Well, judging from this post on is blog, where he engaged the debate, we're not that far apart. I have a few quibbles with some of the things he says, but all in all I can agree with almost all of it. I guess if we are going to have a real honest to goodness debate we're going to have to find something else to debate on.

Nevertheless, let me share a few of my thoughts and quibbles.

First of all, Adrian says:

Begin with clearly considering all the relevant teaching of the bible on the subject. Is their direct biblical teaching that tells me what I should do? Which of the options before me are most consistent with biblical understanding? Prayer and seeking God to ask him to reveal the truth of his word and its application to your life is important even at this stage.

A biblical understanding should always trump all the other concerns.

I couldn't agree more. In that same paragraph he even gives a good insight that I had not noticed on how Paul let a prior Scriptural commitment override a subjective impression of the leading of the Spirit.

I also agree with points three and four of his comments:

3. A thorough consideration of the circumstances in which we find ourselves can also often give an indication of God's leading.

4. Discussion with godly men and women who will be able to confirm the leadings we are feeling.

My quibbles are with his second point, which deals more with the subjective experience of discerning the leading of the spirit. I say these are quibbles because he has already acknowledged that the Word of God trumps subjective experiences and he is also not making the subjective experience determinative. The subjective sense of God's leading is one among several methods of determining God's will in a particular situation. But now, on to the quibbling.

Adrian offered John 5:19, Ephesians 2:10 and Acts 13:2 in defense of his position that:

their is a place for seeking God, and listening to the impressions he places on our hearts.

Rusty Lopez offered a comment on Adrian's blog about John 5:19 that I agree with - I don't see it as dealing with the process of decision making. I also think Ephesians 2:10 states a general principle, not a specific means of finding guidance. I think his most helpful citations is Acts 13:2 where it says:

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

However, the difficulty I have with that passage is that, though it is clear that the Holy Spirit spoke to them, it doesn't tell us the mechanism by which he spoke. I don't think we can use that as a normative passage in discerning the will of God.

I think there are two issues that come to the forefront here. The first is the issue of what are we to do in matters where God's word does not give us clear guidance. The second issue is what are we to make of the subjective in the Christian life?

It is in the realm of those matters where God's word doesn't give us clear guidance that the issue of the subjective experience comes into play. Believers know that they shouldn't marry unbelievers, but how is Billy Sue to decide between Jim Bob and Joe Bob, who are both fine Christian men who want to marry her? This is where the debate is engaged. I would say that she prays for guidance, and searches the word to see if there is anything that would cause her to violate God's word in marrying one or the other, or neither. She should seek wise counsel, check her own life to insure that she is walking in obedience, then she is free to make the decision without waiting for a sign from God. If all things are equal she is free to pick the one she likes better and she doesn't have to go through life wondering if she missed God's will.

I do believe there is a subjective element to the Christian life. Even us stodgy old traditional Westminsterites have a doctrine of providence that allows for the subjective: Shorter Catechism question #11 says this:

What are God’ s works of providence?
God’ s works of providence are, his most holy, (Ps. 145:17) wise, (Ps. 104:24, Isa. 28:29) and powerful preserving, (Heb. 1:3) and governing all his creatures, and all their actions. (Ps. 103:19, Matt. 10:29–31)
The Westminster shorter catechism : With Scripture proofs. 1996 (3rd edition.) (Question 11). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

I don't doubt that, as a part of His work of governing His creatures, that God can do so through subjective impressions. I have a kid in my church whose dad was driving down the road one day and suddenly had a strong impression that he should pull off the road as he was approaching a curve. As he did another car or truck came by in his lane - had he been there he most certainly would have hit the guy head on. This isn't a guy out selling books and starting a ministry over the whole incident, so I have every reason to believe him and to see this as a merciful intervention from God.

The trouble comes when we make such things normative and come to expect such "leadings" whenever we face a decision.

If I may share a bit of my own tradition and experience with you, we have in the PCA a method for discerning a call. There must be an internal call and an external call. Neither is sufficient to constitute a call. The internal call is the subjective sense of calling to a particular work. The external call is when the church itself calls you. Actually, you could say there are two senses of the external call that must be present. The external call involves the approbation of the body - there are those who know you who affirm your fitness for ministry. Then there is the call from a particular church to serve with them.

Anyway, all elements must be present. Some folks raised great concerns about me because, when I was asked if I was called to pastor the church I am now pastoring, I said "I don't know." I explained that I had that internal sense of calling, in that I wanted to come and pastor this church. This was not the "want" of a mere whim, I had prayed over the matter, sought much counsel, and interviewed the church very thoroughly while they were interviewing me. However, that wasn't sufficient to confirm it was God's will to me until I received the call from the church. Even though I wanted to pastor this church and subjectively felt like God was leading me, I could have been entirely wrong. It may have been my own voice I was hearing and not God's. Some of the more mystical folks took that as tantamount to saying that I wasn't listening to God's voice. But the truth was, I was simply using the means God gave me and when the church extended the offer, I confidently told everyone I met that I was called to pastor this church.

That's a long winded response and story. My guess is that Adrian and I are extremely close on this. I think the crux of the matter is "what place does the subjective play in discerning the will of God?" We both agree that it plays a role, any differences we have is probably over degree.

I would just encourage Christians to relax a little in this matter. As Garry Friesen has said so well, God doesn't have dot in the center of a circle known as His "perfect will" which we must spend our lives trying to find out. Yes, in His sovereignty He does have an individual plan for our lives, but He doesn't reveal it to us and doesn't tell us we must seek it. He simply gives us tools for discerning His will - prayer, the Word of God, godly counsel, and circumstances. Lets just use the means He gives us, make decisions and go with it. God is big enough to change our course if we are not doing what He wills, and He will do so when He is ready.

I would also like to refer you to some more stuff I have found in the blogosphere on this subject.

Rebecca writes refers us to a terrific set of articles from the in-depth studies page on finding the will of God - this is from a conference and the teachings here fall in line with Garry Friesen's terrific book Decision Making and the Will of God. You can find these articles here, here, here and here. The material on those pages are thoroughly biblical and state my position better than I can.

Greg Koukl from Stand to Reason has an article critiquing Henry Blackaby's book Experiencing God, which hits on many of the points from this discussion. Hat tip to Sozo at Reasons Why for recommending this article.

Rusty Lopez has followed up his original post that got the ball rolling here.

And Jeremy Pierce at Parablemania reminded me of a link to the discussion at The Limitless.

Comments

[Bob]

JB, I've been following these posts with interest. As a charismatic, I'm glad to see you do allow a place for the subjective in all this. Of course, God is renewing our minds, and that not only means intellect but I believe receptivity to "impressions." I whole-heartedly agree that Scripture must be normative, so-called impressions must be "checked" with care (although your friend who pulled off the road didn't have time for checking, only for obeying!). Charismatic caricatures aside, I have never run into any charismatic who does not hold this view of Scripture v. subjective impressions, although I'm sure they're out there somewhere (caricatures are never made from whole cloth, after all). JB, doesn't God bring specific Scriptural truth to your attention for very specific, personal reasons, along with an impression about how you're going to apply or "walk out" that truth in a given situation that has perhaps been troubling you? And isn't that the subjective experience of God's leading? Bob

[Terry]

David,
I enjoyed your post on this. I used to spend a lot of time descerning the will of God. It is not that I don't seek the will of God now, but I can't spend months coming to a decision. In my job one has to be decisive. It is required or else you get fired. I can sometimes get into "analysis paralysis". I sometimes wonder, yes analyze, whether I was using the time to decern the will of God to justify my own indecision. Along with the indecision, when I first started preaching, I used to spend hours deciding what to preach each week. I was seeking the will of God each week. I'm not saying that a pastor should preach whatever he wants but on the other hand, the constant struggle I had showed the bankrupcy of the approach. When I found expository preaching, I felt like I had been freed from a prison.

[David]

Bob,
Good comment - I agree with what you said although I may quibble with you about being "receptive to impressions." But, on the whole, you are right. When you speak of God bringing specific Scriptural truth to your attention for very specific, personal reasons, I would agree. Those of us in the Reformed camp would put that in the category of illumination. Where I wouldn't go with that is to the idea that I have heard from some charismatics - that we should seek a "rhema" from God for particular situations. I don't find their reasoning persuasive, particularly in their attempt to linguistically distinguish "rhema" from "logos" and then to use the "rhema" as the special "word from God." Attempts to get a "rhema" seem a little too much like attempting to get a word from the Delphic oracle. And often, the alleged "rhemas" are taken wildly out of context. I don't think I hear you saying that though, right?
What I hear you saying is that the Holy Spirit illumines and applies Scripture to our lives and I agree wholeheartedly. What I disapprove of (and its not just Charismatics who are guilty of this) is people who are getting extra-biblical "words" from God, where God tells them where to eat today, or what clothes to wear, or even what woman to marry. Dobson has a great story in one of his books about a beautiful young lady at a Christian college who had a guy come to her and say "God has told me to marry you." She said "that's funny, you're the fourth person this semester that God has told to marry me and He hasn't told me about any of you."
Thanks for some stimulating thoughts Bob - I appreciate them, and you, very much.
David

[David]

Terry,
This is why you and I track so well - although the times and circumstances have been different I have been through the same adventures in finding the will of God. I love what you said about expository preaching. I was actually thinking of doing a post sometime on the subject - I was going to call it something like "The Ease of Expository Preaching." When I say "ease" I am not saying that you don't have to work hard to dig out the meaning of the text. But there is a sense in which expository preaching is "easier" because you are not left to your own devices and creativity when you preach. You don't have to come up with a message, you just have to discern and communicate what the text is saying.
Thanks,
David

[Sozo]

A few more references for your reading pleasure :

- As an add-on to his ariticle on Experiencing God, Koukl also goes through the book of Acts looking at places where decisions were made. It's pretty thorough and I think sets a good precedent for what should be considered normative - http://www.str.org/free/studies/directio.htm

- If you haven't read Friesens book, and the though of tackling his 452 page tome is not so appealing, here's a link to an article in Discipleship Journal where he summarizes his position - http://www.navpress.com/Magazines/DJ/ArticleDisplay.asp?ID=073.02

Good post JB! I have a few questions which I'll post a little but later...

[Bob]

JB, I really don't think there's that much distance between us on this thing. No, I'm not for "waiting on God" before putting on my socks in the morning. However, I do think God might providentially direct my steps even as to, yes, choosing which restaurant to go to. It's not a matter of remaining passive until God shows you (Macdonald's or Burger King, no, Wendy's) as if He were a ouiji board or something, but I believe it is possible to discern His leading at times. He may have a very good reason to prompt me to go one place and not another, just as He had a good reason to prompt your friend to pull off the road. He's in the small stuff as well as the big, and He has made us by His grace able to know and receive His guidance. Not only has He not left us to blind chance, but He has not left us blind to His divine interventions. This is, after all, how "persons" interact. I just don't want to read the Holy Spirit out of daily life. As usual, you are the "thoughtfullest" blogger out there!!

[JD Mays]

"Yes, in His sovereignty He does have an individual plan for our lives, but He doesn't reveal it to us and doesn't tell us we must seek it."

Although I understand the reasoning behind the above quote and in fact agree with it. It still strikes me as odd that God would have a will for our lives but not tell us.

What kind of crazy God would do such a thing?

[Sozo]

Ok, a few more thoughts. I'm still working this out so poke holes if you wish.

In general I agree with points 3 & 4. However, they seem to presuppose that God does lead by subjective impressions. I think that God *can* lead that way, but it is not normative. In any case, it is good to look at our circumstances and seek wise counsel, especially as we seek to apply God's will as He has revealed it in scripture.

On making a decision in non-moral areas, I think this passage can give some insight :

"A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord."(I Cor. 7:39)

Paul doesn't say anything about "hearing from God" about who to marry. Only that she marries who she wishes, as long as they are a believer.

On Bob's comment regarding Charismatics holding scripture above impressions - I'm glad that has been the case for him, however I have seen this happen even among people who do not consider themselves charismatic. Here's one example - a guy is trying to decide whether to ask a girl on a date. He is reading scripture and the phrase "grace be to you" pops out at him. The girl's name is Grace so he decides this is God telling him to ask her out - so he does. Another one - a guy is trying to decide whether to go visit his father, who is sick. He is reading in the Psalms and comes across a passage where David goes back home. So, he takes this as a personal word and goes to visit his Dad. The second example is a first-hand account. The "grace be to you" example was told to me.

The problem is when you do this, scripture becomes relativistic - it no longer means what it originally meant. But that could be the subject of a whole other post.

Great comments guys!

[David]

JD,

Good thought - I confess that, in writing my post I hadn't even thought of a question like that. How about this for a knee jerk response?

We know that God's ways are higher than ours and so there is a real sense in which His plan would be incomprehensible to us. He gives us only what we can know.

Also, I would consider the analogy that we are like children on this earth who must learn how to obey before they can learn why to obey. A silly example would be a child playing in the street. We could share statistics with kids explaining how many kids get run over each year when they run out into the street, we could explain the physics behind what could happen if their little bodies were to come in contact with a speeding car, or we could just tell them "don't play in the street." We have purposes they can't understand so it does no good to explain them to the kids, we just tell them to obey.

In a sense the moral law, or God's revealed will is the instruction to not play in the street. God gives us all kinds of instructions like this throughout our lives - we obey and He guides and protects.

Anyway, that's a knee jerk, not very well thought out response - whaddaya think?

David

[David]

Sozo,

Great comment, just like all the rest - thanks for taking the time to comment. I can also think of an example similar to yours. In college I knew a wonderful young lady who felt called to be a missionary. She saw some verse in Isaiah about something happening in the east and to her this was confirmation of God's call to China. I have no problem with the idea that God could have laid China on her heart, but it seems to me that this takes Scripture wildly out of context and as you say, relativises it.

Bob, if you are reading this I would be interested in your response to Sozo's comment. When we are talking about the Spirit's work of illuminating the Scripture to our minds, what is your take on the dangers of relativising Scripture in such a context?

[David]

Sozo,

Great comment, just like all the rest - thanks for taking the time to comment. I can also think of an example similar to yours. In college I knew a wonderful young lady who felt called to be a missionary. She saw some verse in Isaiah about something happening in the east and to her this was confirmation of God's call to China. I have no problem with the idea that God could have laid China on her heart, but it seems to me that this takes Scripture wildly out of context and as you say, relativises it.

Bob, if you are reading this I would be interested in your response to Sozo's comment. When we are talking about the Spirit's work of illuminating the Scripture to our minds, what is your take on the dangers of relativising Scripture in such a context?

[Bob]

David, let's not run the risk of generalizing from worst cases, which is every bit as misleading as generalizing from best. For every goofy example of Scriptural misapplication I can name you a perfectly sound one. BTW, I think we might be mixing up interpretation and application here. Scripture can only mean one thing, yes, but we are obligated to apply its truth in our own lives. This is not relativizing Scripture. This is "taking Scripture personally." We are not talking here about acting out of whimsy. We are talking about checking our "impressions" against Scripture, waiting for confirmation from other sources (trusted friends, pastoral counseling, etc.). For example, take Jeremiah's "Stand in the crossroads and look for the old ways." At a time of indecision concerning a troubling problem in my life, that verse might be applicable. Then again, for you the circumstances of application might be different, but the principle of the verse remains intact, not demeaned or relatavized. David, don't you do just this in your sermons and counseling sessions, presumably under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? As a final comment, I don't think we should turn the Holy Spirit's names (Guide, Counselor) into empty labels. His leading never undermines Scripture in the least, and always points to Jesus, but He is alive and personally interacting with "those who are being saved."

[Sozo]

Bob,

I cannot speak for David, but IMO the scenarios I cited were examples of mis-interpretaton, not mis-application. The people involved had to actually change the meaning of the passage in order to apply it the way they were trying to.

That said, I whole-heartedly agree that the truth of scripture can(and should) have individual applications in a believers life. And that this application will not conflict with the actual meaning/interpretation of scripture.

I would also agree that the Holy Spirit is personally interacting with each us. Where we might come to a disagreement is exactly how that interaction takes place.

by His grace,
Sozo